Debate tips/tricks

[neesha]

Observing certain patterns in some posts inspired (instead of feeling frustrated) me to google for debate tricks . The first link that I read is below. Many of you may have already seen/used these tricks. But for those(like me) who had no clue about such tricks this information can come in handy.

Please use this thread to add whatever tips/tricks you have learnt / already knew.

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http://hem.passagen.se/dali/debtricks.html

Contents of the link are posted below.
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Stupid Debating Tricks
by John Hawkins

As you'd expect, I've spent a lot of time arguing with left-wingers. As a result of those discussions, I've learned a lot of the little tricks the left -- and yes, sometimes those on the right -- like to use when arguments are going against them. Here are some of those techniques...

1) Attack The Messenger: Instead of addressing the argument that has been made, people using this method attack the person making it instead. This is particularly easy for many delusional people on the left who believe that almost everyone on the right is a racist, sexist, homophobic, Fascist who longs for the return of the Confederacy and is planning to start throwing leftists in prison camps if they let their guard down for five minutes. The charge made doesn't even have to be accurate, in fact it's better in some ways if it's off target. That's because the more whacked out the charge is, the more compelled your opponent will feel to spend his time defending himself while you continue to make your points.

2) The Bait & Switch: When a claim is made and your opponent refutes it, don't try to respond, simply change the subject.

For example:
Lefty Debater: I think we all know what kind of job George Bush has done with the economy. Right off the bat, he got the economy into a recession.

Conservative Debater: Excuse me, but you're incorrect. The recession started under Bill Clinton, not George Bush.

Lefty Debater: Well what about his tax cuts? They're for the rich, the rich I tell you!

Conservative Debater: What about getting rid of the marriage penalty and increasing the child tax credit? Are you arguing that only rich people get married and have kids?

Lefty Debater: Haliburton, did I mention Haliburton? What about that, huh? I guess you want to dodge that issue.


The best part about this from the left-wing debater's perspective is that since they never acknowledged they were wrong, they can feel free to make the exact same incorrect claim in future debates.


3) The Blitzkrieg: The goal here is blast your opponent with so many accusations that they can't possibly respond.

For example:
Lefty Debater: George Bush? Who would defend someone who was AWOL from the National Guard, used coke, lied about weapons of mass destruction, raised taxes on the poor, wants to cut Social Security, is the worst environmental President we've ever had, and who has destroyed the US economy?

Moderator: That's great, but the question was, "Should the Israelis kick Arafat out of the "Disputed Territories"?


It doesn't matter if all -- or even any -- of the accusations are true, relevant, or make any sense. The goal is just to get them out there. Making an accusation takes a few seconds, refuting one takes much longer. So an opponent confronted with these accusations will never actually have time to respond.

4) Enter The Strawman: Tremendously exaggerating your opponent's position and then claiming to fight against a position they don't hold is always a great way to dodge the issues. In all fairness, this is a technique often used by the left & right. But still, the right can't hold a candle to the left in this area. I mean how many times have you heard, "Republicans are going to take your Social Security away," "The GOP wants to poison the water and the air," "Republicans want to take away your Civil Rights" etc, etc?

This whole concept has gotten so out of hand on the left that we now even have some people on the left comparing the Israelis to Nazis. Look, when you're claiming that a bunch a Jews defending themselves from people who want to kill them are like Nazis, you've gone so far past irony that you almost need a new word to describe it like -- "Idiorony" or "outofyourmindony". But that's what happens when people wink at all these strawmen that are tossed out in debates. Eventually some people start to take them seriously and build on them.

5) History Will Be Kind To Me For I Intend To Write It: The technique is similar to using strawmen in some respects. What you try to do is to rewrite history, to claim that a debate in a previous time was different than it actually was.

An example:
Mother: I told you to be back by 11 PM and you're just getting in at 1:30 AM!

Teenage Daughter: I don't think I remember you mentioning that...

Mother: I told you 3 times to be in by 11, I left a note reminding you on the dinner table and snuck one into your purse, I called you on your cellular phone at 10:30 and reminded you to make it home by 11 and I even told your boyfriend he'd better have you back in time.

Teenage Daughter: Oh, oh, oh wait...I remember now -- you meant 11 PM? I thought you meant 11 AM. I thought that by getting in at 1:30 AM I was here 9 and 1/2 hours early. Silly me!

Mother: Nice try, you're still grounded!


The build-up to Iraq war has been treated in a similar fashion by the anti-war crowd. Before the war there were complaints that Bush wouldn't stick to one reason for invading, now there are claims that it was only about WMD. There was almost no debate on Capitol Hill between Dems & the GOP about whether Iraq actually had WMD until after the war when it became apparent that none were going to be quickly be found. Throwaway lines that were hardly noticed before the war (like the controversial yet true 16 words in the State of the Union speech) have been treated as if they were core arguments made by the Bush administration after the fact. It's all just a way to rewrite history.


6) I'm Not Hearing You -- La La La: Just totally ignoring what your opponent has to say and going on to something else is another technique often used by politicians of all stripes, but no one, and I mean no one, can hang with Yasser Arafat and company when it comes to totally blowing off any uncomfortable questions that are asked.

For example:
Moderator: So Mr. Arafat, are you willing to disarm Hamas & Islamic Jihad?

Arafat: The Israelis want to kill me! They are causing all the problems! We want peace, but the Israelis don't!

Moderator: That's fine Mr. Arafat, but are you willing to disarm Hamas & Islamic Jihad?

Arafat: Why don't you ask the Israelis if they will stop their terrorism against our people? Why don't you ask them that?

Moderator: Mr. Arafat you seem to be ignoring my question.

Arafat: Are you questioning me? Do you know who I am? I am general Arafat! This interview is over!


When they duck the question, it's a pretty good indication that they don't have an answer anyone wants to hear.


7) Motives Matter, Results Don't: Oftentimes when people on the left are losing an argument or can't explain why they seem to be so inconsistent on certain issues, they start questioning the motives of their opponents. For example, if you favored going to war with Serbia based on nothing more than humanitarian grounds, then logically you should also be in favor of invading Iraq for exactly the same reason. But of course, that's not how it works for a lot of people.

So to get around that, they just claim that there are impure motives afoot. The Bush administration may have claimed to care about stopping terrorism, weapons of mass destruction, humanitarian causes, or UN Resolutions, but it was really all about stealing oil, getting payoffs for business buddies, getting revenge for an attack on "daddy", because Bush needed Iraqi sand for his garden, Bush was jealous of Saddam's rugged good looks, etc, etc, who cares -- they're all equally ridiculous. When the real issues are too tough to deal with, it's all too easy to just pretend something else is what you're really upset about.


8) That Context Is On A Need To Know Basis: Stripping away the context of a situation is a favored technique of people who hate the United States. They talk about something the United States has done without discussing the reasoning behind it, the actions that provoked it, or other things that the United States might have also done that would place us in a more favorable light. It's very easy to make someone look like a bad guy if you simply don't include every detail that doesn't support your case.

For example:
Lawyer: Your honor, I intend to prove that my client is innocent of all charges and that the police shot him maliciously, recklessly, and without cause as he was minding his own business at the park.

Judge: He was minding his own business? According to the police report I have in front of me, your client had shot 3 drug dealers who were standing in "his spot" and was firing off rounds from an Uzi at a passing school bus, two nuns on a nearby park bench, and at the officers as they arrived. That doesn't sound like he was "minding his own business" to me.

Lawyer: It does if his business is being a drug dealing thug -- ha, ha, ha! Hey, that's just a little joke. It was getting a little tense in here....you're not laughing. OK, just checking -- is that plea bargain still available?


9) That's Mean, Mean, Mean! When it comes to certain subjects, ordinarily rational people turn into complete bubbleheads. For example, you could probably put together a bill that called for nuclear waste to be dumped in every Walmart in America and as long as you called it the, "Feed The Children For A New Tomorrow Bill" about a 1/3rd of the American population would support it. So naturally, some people take advantage of this and claim that certain policy proposals are "mean". Once you say that, results, logic, how expensive the project is, etc, etc, goes out the window and the argument becomes over whether someone is "mean" or not.

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[M V]

This seems like a good thread to post this pondering.

Recently read this news story: Dem Rep. Jackie Speier reveals abortion story on House floor
In short, she narrated her own emotional abortion experience during a House debate over Republican proposals to cut millions of dollars in funding for family planning programs, though it was not her original intention to include it in her speech.

I was wondering about the fairness (for lack of a better word) of such emotional personal experiences being shared in a general discussion on a topic. Does it put the opposition in a position of disadvantage? They cannot plainly dismiss the narration as an anecdotal experience since it is so emotional and obviously worthy of sympathy.

I think narrating such personal experiences during a general discussion is good in a way - they are after all first hand experiences and the listeners get a unique perspective. But, sometimes it is not fair to the opposition as it unduly influences the audience. I guess that is why some questions are not allowed in trials or jury members are instructed to not consider some leading questions asked by either side's lawyer!

In the case of the Jackie Speier example above, I thought her emotional speech was out of place in that House debate, though I am pro-choice.

Citing anecdotal evidence or experiences is part of any discussion, but when the anecdote is personal & emotional, it can get a bit dicey for the side with an opposite opinion on how to tactfully refute it.

[VS007]

In the case of the Jackie Speier example above, I thought her emotional speech was out of place in that House debate, though I am pro-choice.

Citing anecdotal evidence or experiences is part of any discussion, but when the anecdote is personal & emotional, it can get a bit dicey for the side with an opposite opinion on how to tactfully refute it.

The House is a piece of joke now with the tea partiers who are more controlled by the ideology than the merit of the argument. The only thing that works in the present circumstances is emotion and the other side have to use it to defend their position.

[PeterGriffin]

Citing anecdotal evidence or experiences is part of any discussion, but when the anecdote is personal & emotional, it can get a bit dicey for the side with an opposite opinion on how to tactfully refute it.

That hits the nail on the head.
In the NRI kids and grand parents thread, I got the feeling that my post might have offended my good friends Cyber and Rabji after their anecdotal evidences. But then knowing them, I'm sure they understood my POV and, my posts in no way was meant as an offense! It comes down to taking the content in the context of the scenario and not taking it personally.

[okonomi]

This seems like a good thread to post this pondering.

Recently read this news story: Dem Rep. Jackie Speier reveals abortion story on House floor
In short, she narrated her own emotional abortion experience during a House debate ...

I was wondering about the fairness (for lack of a better word) of such emotional personal experiences being shared in a general discussion on a topic. Does it put the opposition in a position of disadvantage? They cannot plainly dismiss the narration as an anecdotal experience since it is so emotional and obviously worthy of sympathy. ......

Very often the "opposition" in politics looks for a conspiracy in the motive behind such narratives. First, there'd be an inquiry as to the truth of the revelation. Then there'd be analyses. The child abuse story of Sen. Scott Brown is reviewed in various ways by various media outlets: from wanting to get into the news cycle, sell books, get publicity for a rerun etc..
Soon after I came upon this forum, and read a few threads of discussions, I had wondered about how/why members divulge information from their personal lives. Now, I do not; it is just an individual choice. Both here and in the House of Congress, other members can choose to ignore what they do not want to see/read/hear, and move on. What is surprising is that how members can get all worked up on some topics when there isn't any audience in front of them - as in CSPAN or in a forum on the web.

[M V]

That hits the nail on the head.
In the NRI kids and grand parents thread, I got the feeling that my post might have offended my good friends Cyber and Rabji after their anecdotal evidences. But then knowing them, I'm sure they understood my POV and, my posts in no way was meant as an offense! It comes down to taking the content in the context of the scenario and not taking it personally.

Yes, I've also encountered it in some discussions. :) Members narrate extremely emotional experiences related to a thread topic, and it is hard to pose questions related to those narrations, as written and unwritten CoC do not allow it.

I browse some forums where if a member narrates a personal emotional incident in a discussion thread not meant to collect "unforgettable moments/experiences of life" type of posts, other members can dissect the incident. That would most probably be termed and reported as personal attack here. In a way it is nice to have a rule against asking members such questions, but it does sometimes give the 'emotional incident narrator' member and his side of the discussion an unfair advantage w.r.t the overall debate. :)

[okonomi]

........
In a way it is nice to have a rule against asking members such questions, but it does sometimes give the 'emotional incident narrator' member and his side of the discussion an unfair advantage w.r.t the overall debate. :)

Would a quote without the name of the "emotional incident narrator" and link be a plausible rule for this ? Would members see the difference between what is quoted above and what is below:

[QUOTE]
........
In a way it is nice to have a rule against asking members such questions, but it does sometimes give the 'emotional incident narrator' member and his side of the discussion an unfair advantage w.r.t the overall debate. :)

I am sure people who register on this forum and jump into it with both feet are not going to read and ponder the CoC before they do so. It is just like electronics: playing with it right away is more fun than reading the manual.

[rabtag]

That hits the nail on the head.
In the NRI kids and grand parents thread, I got the feeling that my post might have offended my good friends Cyber and Rabji after their anecdotal evidences. But then knowing them, I'm sure they understood my POV and, my posts in no way was meant as an offense! It comes down to taking the content in the context of the scenario and not taking it personally.

PG, I never took it personally, Cyber it is time to issue your clarification :)

[cyberabadi]

That hits the nail on the head.
In the NRI kids and grand parents thread, I got the feeling that my post might have offended my good friends Cyber and Rabji after their anecdotal evidences. But then knowing them, I'm sure they understood my POV and, my posts in no way was meant as an offense! It comes down to taking the content in the context of the scenario and not taking it personally.

PG, I never took it personally, Cyber it is time to issue your clarification :)

Nope. Nothing personal at all.

BTW, If not for Okonomi's post being quoted in BCC, I wouldn't have come to a Debating Tricks thread. :)

[boca]

What is surprising is that how members can get all worked up on some topics when there isn't any audience in front of them - as in CSPAN or in a forum on the web.

Nothing unique here in this forum. This happens in most forums. As an observer more so than an active participant on a runner's forum, I have observed that there are members who get worked up, get timeout, members gang up in support of those that got timeout against the admins, run campaigns to bring them back, and some get banned. They also have duplicate ID issues. There are similar anecdotal experiences shared, folks show empathy, some ignore and continue with objective analysis pertaining to the discussion, etc.

Most participate with their real identities. Doesn't prevent them from commenting about Sheilas and Munnis. :)